Edited 2024 to add this picture - Chaitanya drama, 22 November 1993.
Based on some feedback, I'm adding this Radiosai interview's transcript - it gives a good summary of my journey with Sai.
And before the transcript,
a link to my tech blog, hnsws.blogspot.com
a link to my academic page, on ORCID or Google Scholar,
a link to my github account for code,
a link to the books I have read at goodreads,
a link for downloading the interview audio from radiosai,
or listen to the audio with the embed below.
or listen to the audio with the embed below.
And now, the transcript - the interviewer is Smt. Karuna Sarup-Munshi:
KM: Sairam Dear Listeners. It's time for Fleeting moments, lasting memories - our series of conversations with the former students of Bhagawan Baba's University and schools, and today's interview is special, because it is an in-house episode of Fleeting moments. Now, before I begin, I believe this interview warrants a little background, as my guest is a brother from Team Radiosai who is highly respected for being among the most systematic, efficient, disciplined, professional and organised members of our team. He is brilliant in what he does, and very precise and measured in his responses, not to mention that he marches to his own inner drummer. He is a perfectionist behind the four walls of his office and he likes to stay right there, in the background. Sometimes seen, but rarely heard in public, he seems very happy in his own silence. That obviously makes him a very good listener and observer of human nature. And now, dear brothers and sisters, it's time for me to reveal my mystery guest to you, and he is none other than brother Hari Nandakumar.
Originally from Kerala, Hari comes from a family of doctors with both his parents, and his sister, being in the profession, apart from other members of his extended family, but medicine was not to be Hari's calling. Hari Nandakumar joined the Sri Sathya Sai Higher Secondary School, Prasanthi Nilayam, in Grade XI, in the year 1990. In 1995, he was awarded the gold medal by Bhagawan Baba for graduating on top of his class, in the B.Sc. Physics Honours program, from the Brindavan campus of the Sai University. Hari earned his second gold medal in 1997, when he topped in his Masters program in Physics from the Prasanthi Nilayam campus. Along with a handful of others, Hari was part of the core team that Prof. G. Venkataraman formed to set up Radiosai at Bhagawan's command in the year 2001. Having been with Radiosai right from its inception, Hari Nandakumar has done it all - maintaining the servers, maintaining the database, audio processing, liaising with our technology partners, listeners, you name it, he's done it, while consciously staying away from the public eye.
This multi-tasker also manages the functions of the Planetarium in Prasanthi Nilayam, which is the Sri Sathya Sai Space Theatre. That makes him the only member of Team Radiosai who works in the quietitude of the Planetarium, far from the hustle and bustle of our studios. Of course, we're all networked, and despite the physical distance, brother Hari is only a click of the mouse away. Today, after about a year of trying to convince him, I'm glad to have him sitting across from me. Sairam brother Hari, and welcome to Fleeting moments, lasting memories.
HN: Sairam Didi.
KM: It's great to have you on this special day, actually, because I think you made me wait for over a few years to get you on the hot seat, and it so happened between your schedule and mine, that we're doing it on a very special day, today is Raksha bandhan.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: So it's a special day for sisters and brothers, for siblings, and for me it's a great honour to record your Fleeting moments today, Hari, so I'm really really delighted that you finally agreed. Let's talk about before you joined Swami's college or school, before you came very close to Swami. How did you view Him? What was your impression of God?
HN: From a very young age, my parents had become devotees, maybe when I was 5 or 6 years old, we had first come to Prasanthi Nilayam. From that very impressionable age, the concept of Sri Sathya Sai Baba as God - that was very clear to us. So, from there, the reason why I applied was because it was Swami's school, and so on.
KM: And since this was an impression you carried as part of your upbringing, because the family was devoted to Swami, what was your personal equation with Him? How did you view Him? A loving God? A scary God? A superman God? As a child?
HN: As a child, my concept of God was something like: God's in His Heaven, and all's right with the world. Something like that. God is in Prasanthi Nilayam and ...
KM: All is well in Kerala!
HN: That's right! So, somewhat distant. We go for the bhajans. We sit there. We pray to Him. But carrying Him around all the time - that sort of concept was not there. At least for me, personally.
KM: And then in 1992, I understand, you were in Prasanthi Nilayam?
HN: In 1990, I joined for XI class.
KM: XI class - that's when your journey began. What was it like? Was there a change or a transition in your understanding or conceptualisation of divinity?
HN: Very much. Bhagawan's approach - He brings us close to Him, and allows us to have that relationship of a friend, or the closest person you have. 'God is your best friend' - He keeps saying that, and He demonstrates it. And He makes you feel it.
KM: In your case, how did that evolve? How did that relationship evolve so dramatically?
HN: Probably, I would say, it evolved more in Brindavan. Because Brindavan is where Bhagawan is very free with the students.
KM: That's your undergrad years.
HN: That's right. '92 to '95. And we were lucky in that Bhagawan stayed in Brindavan for extended periods of time during '93 to '95. So we had lots of opportunities for the so-called Trayee sessions, where Bhagawan would have long informal sessions - something like an interview, for the entire college. Almost every day, for months. If you spend long periods of time with someone, you learn from that person a lot, and you get to know him better.
KM: Now, before the Brindavan years began, two years of High School here, grade XI and XII - what was that like? Did you have an opportunity - knowing the kind of person you are, Hari, you're not the kind who will push his way and come to the front - you always like to lead from behind, and you're one of those quiet, hardworking types. So, given your nature, did you have any opportunities to interface with the Lord?
HN: Yes. In those days, even people like me, who would not push their way front, even we got lots of chances. For example, any day, every day, if we wanted, we could have padanamaskar. We just had to go and sit in a particular place near the railing, and invariably Bhagawan would walk that way and there was only one foot space for Him to walk, so you had padanamaskar. And things like that. And if you wanted to hear Him speak, you could go and sit at a particular place, you could hear Him. If you wanted to have padanamaskar, you go and sit at that place. If you wanted to attend bhajans, you go and sit in the bhajan hall. All those options were there for us, which, those days we took for granted. It is only later that all these opportunities were no longer available.
KM: Hari, you're such a bright student. Academically so bright. I'm sure you had many options in terms of going for a professional college or school. Was the decision to study in Swami's Higher Secondary School yours? Or that of your parents? Or combined?
HN: Before I applied to Swami's school, I did not even know that He had a school. I knew that He had a college, because we had read the books and all that, all of them, in the 1970s, they used to mention Swami's college. We didn't know that He had a school. One of our neighbours, who used to go to the same Samiti, they got application forms for their son, and they got a spare form also, and they approached us, and said that they had a form for this Bhagawan's school, would you like to apply. At that time, I did not have any specific goal in mind for my life. I was more interested in the hard sciences, not interested in biology and that sort of thing. I thought probably I would do Engineering. So, I had not thought about my future, much. When we got this chance of applying to Bhagawan's school, I did not believe that I would get through. "Swami's school - how can I get? People from all over India apply." But we applied, and I got ...
KM: I'm sure you aced, Hari, you're just being humble ...
HN: Well, I came to know later that I did. In fact, that was one of the reasons why they were reluctant to take me in! I had a 45 minute interview session.
KM: Why? They wanted to avoid extra bright students?
HN: Apparently they had some discipline issues with so-called bright people from Kerala in the earlier years. Sometimes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. They were not sure whether I would also turn out to be somebody with "horns".
KM: You had a 45 minute interview? You had to sell your candidature to them, after doing so well on the test?
HN: I was not very good at Maths. As compared to the other people who applied from Andhra Pradesh, because the Kerala board syllabus Maths standard was much lower. They gave me a test. I sort of worked it out from first principles, and said that if you do this, this, this, you will get the answer, but right now I don't have the tools to do it. So, I suppose they were reasonably pleased with that. It took a long time for me to figure it out. But in terms of other things, they asked about Balvikas, whether I know bhajans and all that. That was fine, because we used to have bhajans at home, every week, so on that side there was no issue.
KM: But this decision, that was your own then, to study here?
HN: You'll have to say that Bhagawan sent the application form, because ...
KM: Through the neighbour?
HN: Through the neighbour. Because we had not even known about the existence of the school. And after getting into the school, when I saw the system here, within six months, I decided that if Bhagawan allows me, I would like to spend the rest of my life here.
KM: Oh! You must have been - what - 15 or 16?
HN: Yes - 16.
KM: And you had that clarity?
HN: Clarity in the sense that if Bhagawan allows, I would like to. And I knew that it was possible for ... I was quite inspired by one of our teachers. He was an extremely bright student, gold medallist and all that. He was a very inspiring teacher.
KM: May I ask who?
HN: Dr. Shailesh Srivastava.
KM: And he's still a teacher in the school?
HN: Currently he's a teacher in the college.
KM: College. I see.
HN: So, seeing such a bright person doing a teaching job, and being here, I thought maybe I can also be like a squirrel, doing Rama's work, whatever small bit I can do, I would like to do.
KM: Hmmm. Now, let's go back to your Brindavan years. What are your fondest memories? You said that those were years when Bhagawan spent considerable periods of time there in Whitefield.
HN: I was also blessed to be part of the Audio Visual team.
KM: Because Swami had a job planned for you in Radiosai! He started training you quite early, I can see.
HN: In fact, even in my school days, even in XI and XII, I had done a little bit of this mics business. And being part of the Audio Visual team, we were privileged to be back-stage, so to speak. And we would be in Bhagawan's Trayee Brindavan compound. Before Bhagawan came out for darshan, we would be there, we would set up everything. Then He would come out, we would put on the music, the bhajans would start, and so on. While we were there, occasionally Bhagawan would come inside our room. Where we have all this, amplifier and mixer and all that. He would walk inside, and look out through the window, things like that. Very human. Very close proximity. Even though He didn't say much, He sort-of conveyed that we were His. And that was a very special feeling. For example, while He was going from Brindavan, when He would leave for Prasanthi Nilayam, or Kodaikanal, or wherever it is, He would call the various people who did various service there. And He would give them something. Like prasadam. Sweets. Sometimes He would call us also. On some occasion, it would have been safari suits. On one occasion, He dipped His hand inside a big container of Son papdi - it's a sweet - and with His hands, He took it out and gave it in our hands for us to eat. Things like that.
KM: Must have tasted so divine. Just getting it straight from the hand.
HN: And another blessing of being in the Audio Visual group was that I could be a witness to Bhagawan's interactions with various groups. At Brindavan, once I was there when Bhagawan was speaking to a large group of Italian devotees. And He corrected the Italian translator. He prompted the appropriate words. And much later, at Prasanthi Nilayam, during the course of one week or around ten days, I could witness Bhagawan interacting with girl students from His University, later boy students from His University, and a group of youth from one of the states of India. It was beautiful to see how He interacted with each group in a unique way.
KM: You said that Swami did not speak much. When you were in very close proximity. But He managed to communicate to you that you were His. What does that do for a young person, in terms of your life goals, your aspirations?
HN: As I mentioned, Didi, my life goal or aspiration was to be with Bhagawan. From much before that. So, this was an added incentive, you could say? And through the various Trayee sessions - there He would speak. In the Trayee sessions, Bhagawan would speak, and He would explain things in such simple language that anybody would be able to understand. From the youngest children - sometimes, there would be Primary School children there - even they could understand the high concepts which Bhagawan was speaking about. And because He told us in such a memorable way, I still recollect - when somebody asks a question, I can immediately recollect the story which Bhagawan has told about that concept.
KM: That tell you about His power as a teacher - His lessons have still stayed with you.
HN: That's right, Didi. Through those Trayee sessions, there was a lot of closeness with Bhagawan which developed. And Bhagawan used to sing this song - Prema Rahita Marubhoomulalo - that is, in the arid heart, You have planted seeds of Love - this song - it was something like that. Having love for God. That was what He developed in those years. In me, at least.
KM: Beautiful. Now, I understand that not only did Bhagawan speak of these beautiful loving sublime and inspiring topics, there must have been times when He spoke to you boys in a stern voice about matters related to discipline.
HN: That's true. Yes, Bhagawan would be very particular about discipline. And He would sometimes chastise us. The more painful part would be when He would stop talking, altogether. And He would say, 'What is the use of Me talking to you? You are not following My words.' That would prick everybody. And that would probably be the times at which a lot of introspection would go on, and people would change for the better. Of course, when He pointed out specific things, naturally, people would try to correct themselves, that is also true. For example, towards the end of my school studies, Bhagawan paid a visit to our Hostel. This was in February 1992. And He delivered a very strict message. He was very unhappy with some of the senior students, and He very bluntly told them that if they wanted to be there with Bhagawan, they would have to follow what He says. And within a few days, He also left for Brindavan. He has gone away. So He's no longer speaking to you, and so on. In that way, He would reinforce what He said, by not talking to you. Then, a lot of introspection would take place, and those who truly loved Him would try to change themselves and follow what He said, rather than just mouth the sentiment that they loved Him, or whatever it is.
KM: Hari, what exactly were the areas of discipline that were weak among the boys, that Swami pointed at as a weakness among the boys? Would you care to share?
HN: Those days, Bhagawan was very strict about talking. He would be very particular about maintaining silence. He would say, "Boys are talking too much". Then, "going from room to room" - you were not expected to socialize. You were not expected to have discussions other than for your academics, of course, other than what is strictly required, any other loose talk was an anathema for Bhagawan. And there were some other issues of some of the senior students going out and having food from outside, things like that, which He was very strict about. Even now, the Hostel is very strict about those things.
KM: And rightly so, because Swami has laid those parameters, and it is His school. I guess it is incumbent upon the administrators to ensure that the tradition continues.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: So, we never realize the value of silence, the need to curtail excessive talk. I guess this is in an age where there were no cell phones, nobody was on Whatsapp, GMail, GTalk, Facebook, constantly updating and communicating externally, and even then Swami was so strict about it.
HN: Even speaking to your own classmates,
KM: Without a good reason.
HN: Without a good reason.
KM: As He said, 'Speak only if what you speak is true, is pleasing, and will improve upon the silence'.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: If all of us actually go through that criteria whenever we intend to open our mouth, we would all be very silent. Wow! So strict, huh? Was it hard as a young boy to find Swami so upset and also demonstrating the lesson by going away and being away from all of you?
HN: For some people, it was really difficult. Especially those to whom Swami had showered a lot of attention, a lot of personal attention. People to whom He would speak almost every day. For them, naturally, it was very difficult. For somebody like me, in the crowd, I was not used to personal attention, so it did not hit me as hard. I thought that I would not be so upset about such things, I thought that my approach to Bhagawan was different, but later He showed me that He can make me also go through that drama. Much later - this happened in 2010. He created a situation where it appeared as if He was upset with me, that too for something which I misunderstood - I had not understood Him correctly. Those days, whenever He would come inside the bhajan hall, I would be sitting there with the audio mixer, for Radiosai, and He would either look at me, or nod at me, or acknowledge my presence. After this sort of misunderstanding, or annoyance, or whatever, for six months or so, He would turn away His head very abruptly when He used to come near me. So, that sort of indicated that He was upset with me. And I could not do much about it. I could write letters to Him, but it apparently didn't work. So, that sort of thing is very effective in causing introspection. I learnt it the hard way.
KM: Six tough months, huh?
HN: That's true.
KM: And then how did it resolve, between the two of you?
HN: I think it was one of those students alumni meet or something like that. He looked at me. With a faint smile.
KM: Intense rigourous spiritual training, obviously. But the so-called wonderful years at Brindavan - what else do you recall, when you look back?
HN: Those days, when we used to go to Prasanthi Nilayam, we were allowed to sit in the Mandir whenever we wanted. In the afternoon times, we would be sitting opposite the verandah, and when Bhagawan would go for His lunch or meals or whatever, we would have a glimpse of Him from afar. If Bhagawan happened to see us, He would come near the verandah, the edge of the balcony, and He would sometimes say a few words. Only some 5-6 of us would be there. That is one memory. Another memory is - when Malayali boys used to go for Onam, Bhagawan would sometimes give us attention. He would say, "Brindavan boys, go inside" - interview room - and He would give us interviews. In fact, one year, He gave us two interviews during that Onam time.
KM: Because Onam is a special festival for the people of Kerala, where you come from?
HN: That's right. Those interviews were also similar to the Trayee sessions. Bhagawan would give us some advice, we could have padanamaskar, He would sometimes give us vibhuti packets, we would have the opportunity of giving Him letters and so on. Sometimes, somebody would have the opportunity to ask Him some questions - He would say, "What is the news?" and somebody would ask something. And so on.
KM: As a student, as a girl student who studied here in the late eighties, as He Himself said, with ladies, He was a lady, with men He was a man, with boys, He was a boy - I remember you all having wonderful times - the boy students - having a great time with Bhagawan during Diwali. Did you have any such opportunity to celebrate Deepavali with Swami as a student?
HN: Yes, during my XI and XII, we were at Prasanthi Nilayam, and Bhagawan would celebrate Deepavali with a lot of enthusiasm, along with all of us. Crackers would be set up in the Prasanthi Mandir grounds itself.
KM: Yes! Now when I think back, it seems so hard to believe, right in front of the verandah you all used to burst those big firecrackers.
HN: That's right. And all the ladies would be shivering. Sometimes the rockets would go towards the ladies and they would all shriek. Once or twice, it so happened that the rockets came towards Bhagawan, but He would not even flinch. It would burst right in front of Him, but He would just not bother about it. And He would give sparklers to - personally, with His own hands - He would give sparklers to the small children. He was the Best Friend.
KM: Such comfort levels all of you enjoyed. I think maybe a thousand years from now, or a hundred years from now, when people hear these stories, they will find it so hard to believe that it actually happened.
HN: Even now, Didi.
KM: Even today. It's hard to believe this transpired, that we actually celebrated Diwali with Bhagawan. When He was handing over firecrackers and flowerpots. We call them Anar in Hindi. Yes, I remember. And every time one flower pot would illuminate, Swami's form used to look so beautiful against that light. Yes. Memorable days. Now, Hari, knowing what a self-negating kind of humble, quiet, behind the scenes person you are, I understand you actually took part in a drama? That was presented in front of the Lord, and you had a very special role in it?
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: Please share that with us.
HN: This was the Chaitanya drama, which was presented in 1993 and again in 1994 January. I was the leper whom Chaitanya Mahaprabhu cures.
KM: You had a 3 second role or something?
HN: It was a little longer. The pathos of the leper had to be presented. And then how he gets cured, and the joy and all that. All that had to be presented. So, it was something like a three minute role.
KM: Plum role you bagged! Very good, Hari!
HN: We had planned for this during our school days. We had many many practice sessions. And we used to go for morning darshan and so on, asking Bhagawan for an opportunity to present this drama, when we were in school. At that time, Swami said, "Later ... later ... later ..." and it never transpired. And after I joined Brindavan, in my second year of undergraduate, suddenly the idea of this Chaitanya Mahaprabhu drama again surfaced, and it was planned for the Convocation drama. And, looking for actors who could do those roles, some of the actors who had practiced for those roles in our school days, we were still students, we were in college at that time, we were chosen. Bhagawan was very pleased with this Convocation drama, 22 November 1993. He said, for the doctors' conference in January '94, we should again present this drama. After the presentation of the drama to the doctors, the President of India was also in the audience, Bhagawan was very pleased. He came onstage and started giving out mementos. These were steel vessels. And He was handing it out to all the actors. Big role, small role, everybody. I was in the final scene of the drama. We were a large group. Maybe 20-30 or even more of us. And in that confusion, it appeared as if Bhagawan did not see me. So, I did not get the memento. I did not want to pester Him onstage. So I just walked offstage when everybody else was leaving. Later, in the video of the session, I could see that Bhagawan had called after me, saying that "Oh! You did not get!" But I did not see that, because I turned away, and I was walking off. Backstage - our seniors, the teachers - they told me, 'You go again, Bhagawan wants to give you the memento.' In the next batch, again, I went, this time Bhagawan gave me the memento. This fact that Bhagawan was looking out for me, but I did not see Him, that seems to be a sort of repeating thing in my life. Even in Kodaikanal, in 2006, Bhagawan asked me, whether I had seen Him when He had come to Calicut. At that time, I did not know that we had gone and seen Him. In 1976. I would have been a baby. Toddler. But I asked my parents. And apparently, yes, they had taken me and gone to a colleague's house, where Bhagawan was staying, and we had darshan. In 1976. So, Bhagawan mentioned it, even though I did not know about it.
KM: And how old were you at that time? '76?
HN: 2 years old? And a couple of days later, when Bhagawan gave all of us padanamaskar after the drama, He looked at me and asked, "Leprosy?" So He sort of recognized me, in my leper's role.
KM: You were there, when on 22 November, I think, 1994, when the Prime Minister of India at that time, late Narasimha Rao was here. I'm curious to know, you have the entries in the diary, what stands out as the most forceful message that Swami gave that day?
HN: Bhagawan spoke that day, in very direct terms. He said, "The Prime Minister is here. He is also a person from Andhra Pradesh. I have some things to tell you. Our country will improve if all the rivers are used for common good. There is also one thing I should tell you. This practice of killing cows should stop. In our sacred land of Bharat, this is not appropriate. The Prime Minister should take steps to stop this." And as we all know, the Prime Minister did not do much about it. Bhagawan Himself started the Water Project, and provided drinking water, the very next year, for the entire Anantapur district.
KM: Swami was constantly demonstrating and giving examples - how to go about putting your words into practice. So that the rest of us could learn from Him. Especially those in decision-making capacities. So unfortunate that the government was only applauding the effort, not participating by taking it up themselves. Now, after your undergraduate in Brindavan, you went on to do your Masters in Physics. That was in Prasanthi Nilayam, of course. Those years must have been very memorable as well?
HN: After the closeness at Brindavan, Prasanthi Nilayam was more ... You could say, you've learnt your lessons, now practice them. It was something like that. As you know, Didi, in Prasanthi Nilayam, Bhagawan has got a lot more responsibilities, so to speak. So He gets to spend less time with the students in such a close setting as in Brindavan. But yes. One of the things which stand out in my memory is that it was during my first year post-graduate, that this water-works started. That is, sitting for Bhajan one day, suddenly, tears started coming out of my eyes.
KM: Were you upset? Was there a reason?
HN: I couldn't say that. No specific reason to be sad. It was not that I was sad and crying. You could say I was happy and crying. Tears of joy of being in His presence. I was the most surprised person! I never used to cry!
KM: Or show too much emotion. You're so reserved.
HN: That's right. So, that is really the power of God. As He used to say, 'I can turn a boy into a girl and a girl into a boy.'
KM: And churn your heart so that somebody who is as self-contained as yourself actually have a big cry-fest.
HN: That's true.
KM: So, you were going through this period of just catharsis, crying your eyes out just out of love for Swami. And then you've had issues with your health here?
HN: Yes, Didi. After I started working, in the year 2000, I got jaundice. And I was out of action for two months. And again, five years later, I was again out of action for another two or three weeks, with a lung infection. When I had jaundice, I was initially admitted to the Super Speciality Hospital. I was kept in an isolation ward. Apparently, some of the students who were working there, they spoke to Swami about me, and He said, the reason I contracted jaundice was because I drank the muddy water at the Planetarium. Which was actually true - I was drinking the tap water, which would turn muddy during the monsoon time.
KM: Wow! So the water must have been contaminated, and He just got to the bottom of it.
HN: That's right. So, after I recovered, I started having food in the Hostel. And taking the water from the Hostel. Purified water.
KM: Hari, of all the brothers that I have spoken to, especially for in-house Fleeting moments interviews from Team Radiosai, in their story, there's a chapter called 'Waiting years'. And when people had to wait after completing their education, for Bhagawan to tell them what was the right occupation or job for them. You had yours, for not too long, for about a year and a half.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: 1997 to '98?
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: What was it like?
HN: For me personally? It was some of the best months with Bhagawan I had. Because there was no other preoccupation. We had to think only of Bhagawan. During the morning bhajans, we could sit right at His feet. The first row - the very first row of the bhajan hall. Those days, there were no mics. We were singing directly to Him. Singing His praises, two feet away from Him! And, every day. For months. It was wonderful. There were some other colleagues of mine who had various worries. What would happen to us, how long will we wait, time is passing, and so on. But Bhagawan had given me that mental outlook, to be completely convinced that He would take me in at the right time. Even though there were examples of one of my senior colleagues who had waited for seven years, that did not scare me, you could say. In fact, in those years, I did not even think about any minus points about the waiting time. I did not think it was a burden. I felt it was a great blessing.
KM: This is the time when the water-works was on and Swami was opening up your heart and the bliss was flowing through your eyes.
HN: That's right, Didi. He would occasionally glance at me,
KM: Who's that girl crying in the boys' section?!
HN: Something like that. And occasionally, it may have been my imagination, I thought I saw a tear or so in His eyes also. I don't know.
KM: Hari, how did you become part of Team Radiosai? Yourself, Prakash Bharatkar and of course, Prof. G. Venkataraman - you were the small team that led it all, under His guidance. Under Bhagawan's guidance, and under Prof. GV's guidance. How did you get hand-picked in that team?
HN: When the WorldSpace team came to Prasanthi Nilayam and proposed a satellite radio channel for Bhagawan, Prof. Venkataraman was chosen to do the implementation. At that time, I was reporting to him, for the Planetarium upgradation project. For which I was hired, initially. My first job was to upgrade the planetarium. That project was just winding up when this WorldSpace team arrived with this proposal. Since I was reporting to Prof. Venkataraman, for that project, and he was involved with Radiosai, it was quite natural that I would also be pulled into the Radiosai fold.
KM: I don't think it's that natural. It's not easy for Prof. Venkataraman to pick anyone to be part of his team, because I know how exacting his standards are. You must have done a good job, Hari.
HN: I hope so. In 2002, when Bhagawan came for the inauguration of the studio, here, I was asked to hold the candle for Him to light the lamp. So, He looked at me and said, "Oh! You're here?!" Because He used to see me there at the Planetarium and He used to call me "Planetarium boy". So, He was seeing me inside the Ashram, in the Studio, so He asked, "Have you come here?", "Have you shifted your workplace?", something like that. I said, "No, Swami, I'm still there at the Planetarium. Just helping them out with some things." That's how it has remained. I have been at the Planetarium, and doing Radiosai work on the side, so to speak.
Originally from Kerala, Hari comes from a family of doctors with both his parents, and his sister, being in the profession, apart from other members of his extended family, but medicine was not to be Hari's calling. Hari Nandakumar joined the Sri Sathya Sai Higher Secondary School, Prasanthi Nilayam, in Grade XI, in the year 1990. In 1995, he was awarded the gold medal by Bhagawan Baba for graduating on top of his class, in the B.Sc. Physics Honours program, from the Brindavan campus of the Sai University. Hari earned his second gold medal in 1997, when he topped in his Masters program in Physics from the Prasanthi Nilayam campus. Along with a handful of others, Hari was part of the core team that Prof. G. Venkataraman formed to set up Radiosai at Bhagawan's command in the year 2001. Having been with Radiosai right from its inception, Hari Nandakumar has done it all - maintaining the servers, maintaining the database, audio processing, liaising with our technology partners, listeners, you name it, he's done it, while consciously staying away from the public eye.
This multi-tasker also manages the functions of the Planetarium in Prasanthi Nilayam, which is the Sri Sathya Sai Space Theatre. That makes him the only member of Team Radiosai who works in the quietitude of the Planetarium, far from the hustle and bustle of our studios. Of course, we're all networked, and despite the physical distance, brother Hari is only a click of the mouse away. Today, after about a year of trying to convince him, I'm glad to have him sitting across from me. Sairam brother Hari, and welcome to Fleeting moments, lasting memories.
HN: Sairam Didi.
KM: It's great to have you on this special day, actually, because I think you made me wait for over a few years to get you on the hot seat, and it so happened between your schedule and mine, that we're doing it on a very special day, today is Raksha bandhan.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: So it's a special day for sisters and brothers, for siblings, and for me it's a great honour to record your Fleeting moments today, Hari, so I'm really really delighted that you finally agreed. Let's talk about before you joined Swami's college or school, before you came very close to Swami. How did you view Him? What was your impression of God?
HN: From a very young age, my parents had become devotees, maybe when I was 5 or 6 years old, we had first come to Prasanthi Nilayam. From that very impressionable age, the concept of Sri Sathya Sai Baba as God - that was very clear to us. So, from there, the reason why I applied was because it was Swami's school, and so on.
KM: And since this was an impression you carried as part of your upbringing, because the family was devoted to Swami, what was your personal equation with Him? How did you view Him? A loving God? A scary God? A superman God? As a child?
HN: As a child, my concept of God was something like: God's in His Heaven, and all's right with the world. Something like that. God is in Prasanthi Nilayam and ...
KM: All is well in Kerala!
HN: That's right! So, somewhat distant. We go for the bhajans. We sit there. We pray to Him. But carrying Him around all the time - that sort of concept was not there. At least for me, personally.
KM: And then in 1992, I understand, you were in Prasanthi Nilayam?
HN: In 1990, I joined for XI class.
KM: XI class - that's when your journey began. What was it like? Was there a change or a transition in your understanding or conceptualisation of divinity?
HN: Very much. Bhagawan's approach - He brings us close to Him, and allows us to have that relationship of a friend, or the closest person you have. 'God is your best friend' - He keeps saying that, and He demonstrates it. And He makes you feel it.
KM: In your case, how did that evolve? How did that relationship evolve so dramatically?
HN: Probably, I would say, it evolved more in Brindavan. Because Brindavan is where Bhagawan is very free with the students.
KM: That's your undergrad years.
HN: That's right. '92 to '95. And we were lucky in that Bhagawan stayed in Brindavan for extended periods of time during '93 to '95. So we had lots of opportunities for the so-called Trayee sessions, where Bhagawan would have long informal sessions - something like an interview, for the entire college. Almost every day, for months. If you spend long periods of time with someone, you learn from that person a lot, and you get to know him better.
KM: Now, before the Brindavan years began, two years of High School here, grade XI and XII - what was that like? Did you have an opportunity - knowing the kind of person you are, Hari, you're not the kind who will push his way and come to the front - you always like to lead from behind, and you're one of those quiet, hardworking types. So, given your nature, did you have any opportunities to interface with the Lord?
HN: Yes. In those days, even people like me, who would not push their way front, even we got lots of chances. For example, any day, every day, if we wanted, we could have padanamaskar. We just had to go and sit in a particular place near the railing, and invariably Bhagawan would walk that way and there was only one foot space for Him to walk, so you had padanamaskar. And things like that. And if you wanted to hear Him speak, you could go and sit at a particular place, you could hear Him. If you wanted to have padanamaskar, you go and sit at that place. If you wanted to attend bhajans, you go and sit in the bhajan hall. All those options were there for us, which, those days we took for granted. It is only later that all these opportunities were no longer available.
KM: Hari, you're such a bright student. Academically so bright. I'm sure you had many options in terms of going for a professional college or school. Was the decision to study in Swami's Higher Secondary School yours? Or that of your parents? Or combined?
HN: Before I applied to Swami's school, I did not even know that He had a school. I knew that He had a college, because we had read the books and all that, all of them, in the 1970s, they used to mention Swami's college. We didn't know that He had a school. One of our neighbours, who used to go to the same Samiti, they got application forms for their son, and they got a spare form also, and they approached us, and said that they had a form for this Bhagawan's school, would you like to apply. At that time, I did not have any specific goal in mind for my life. I was more interested in the hard sciences, not interested in biology and that sort of thing. I thought probably I would do Engineering. So, I had not thought about my future, much. When we got this chance of applying to Bhagawan's school, I did not believe that I would get through. "Swami's school - how can I get? People from all over India apply." But we applied, and I got ...
KM: I'm sure you aced, Hari, you're just being humble ...
HN: Well, I came to know later that I did. In fact, that was one of the reasons why they were reluctant to take me in! I had a 45 minute interview session.
KM: Why? They wanted to avoid extra bright students?
HN: Apparently they had some discipline issues with so-called bright people from Kerala in the earlier years. Sometimes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. They were not sure whether I would also turn out to be somebody with "horns".
KM: You had a 45 minute interview? You had to sell your candidature to them, after doing so well on the test?
HN: I was not very good at Maths. As compared to the other people who applied from Andhra Pradesh, because the Kerala board syllabus Maths standard was much lower. They gave me a test. I sort of worked it out from first principles, and said that if you do this, this, this, you will get the answer, but right now I don't have the tools to do it. So, I suppose they were reasonably pleased with that. It took a long time for me to figure it out. But in terms of other things, they asked about Balvikas, whether I know bhajans and all that. That was fine, because we used to have bhajans at home, every week, so on that side there was no issue.
KM: But this decision, that was your own then, to study here?
HN: You'll have to say that Bhagawan sent the application form, because ...
KM: Through the neighbour?
HN: Through the neighbour. Because we had not even known about the existence of the school. And after getting into the school, when I saw the system here, within six months, I decided that if Bhagawan allows me, I would like to spend the rest of my life here.
KM: Oh! You must have been - what - 15 or 16?
HN: Yes - 16.
KM: And you had that clarity?
HN: Clarity in the sense that if Bhagawan allows, I would like to. And I knew that it was possible for ... I was quite inspired by one of our teachers. He was an extremely bright student, gold medallist and all that. He was a very inspiring teacher.
KM: May I ask who?
HN: Dr. Shailesh Srivastava.
KM: And he's still a teacher in the school?
HN: Currently he's a teacher in the college.
KM: College. I see.
HN: So, seeing such a bright person doing a teaching job, and being here, I thought maybe I can also be like a squirrel, doing Rama's work, whatever small bit I can do, I would like to do.
KM: Hmmm. Now, let's go back to your Brindavan years. What are your fondest memories? You said that those were years when Bhagawan spent considerable periods of time there in Whitefield.
HN: I was also blessed to be part of the Audio Visual team.
KM: Because Swami had a job planned for you in Radiosai! He started training you quite early, I can see.
HN: In fact, even in my school days, even in XI and XII, I had done a little bit of this mics business. And being part of the Audio Visual team, we were privileged to be back-stage, so to speak. And we would be in Bhagawan's Trayee Brindavan compound. Before Bhagawan came out for darshan, we would be there, we would set up everything. Then He would come out, we would put on the music, the bhajans would start, and so on. While we were there, occasionally Bhagawan would come inside our room. Where we have all this, amplifier and mixer and all that. He would walk inside, and look out through the window, things like that. Very human. Very close proximity. Even though He didn't say much, He sort-of conveyed that we were His. And that was a very special feeling. For example, while He was going from Brindavan, when He would leave for Prasanthi Nilayam, or Kodaikanal, or wherever it is, He would call the various people who did various service there. And He would give them something. Like prasadam. Sweets. Sometimes He would call us also. On some occasion, it would have been safari suits. On one occasion, He dipped His hand inside a big container of Son papdi - it's a sweet - and with His hands, He took it out and gave it in our hands for us to eat. Things like that.
KM: Must have tasted so divine. Just getting it straight from the hand.
HN: And another blessing of being in the Audio Visual group was that I could be a witness to Bhagawan's interactions with various groups. At Brindavan, once I was there when Bhagawan was speaking to a large group of Italian devotees. And He corrected the Italian translator. He prompted the appropriate words. And much later, at Prasanthi Nilayam, during the course of one week or around ten days, I could witness Bhagawan interacting with girl students from His University, later boy students from His University, and a group of youth from one of the states of India. It was beautiful to see how He interacted with each group in a unique way.
KM: You said that Swami did not speak much. When you were in very close proximity. But He managed to communicate to you that you were His. What does that do for a young person, in terms of your life goals, your aspirations?
HN: As I mentioned, Didi, my life goal or aspiration was to be with Bhagawan. From much before that. So, this was an added incentive, you could say? And through the various Trayee sessions - there He would speak. In the Trayee sessions, Bhagawan would speak, and He would explain things in such simple language that anybody would be able to understand. From the youngest children - sometimes, there would be Primary School children there - even they could understand the high concepts which Bhagawan was speaking about. And because He told us in such a memorable way, I still recollect - when somebody asks a question, I can immediately recollect the story which Bhagawan has told about that concept.
KM: That tell you about His power as a teacher - His lessons have still stayed with you.
HN: That's right, Didi. Through those Trayee sessions, there was a lot of closeness with Bhagawan which developed. And Bhagawan used to sing this song - Prema Rahita Marubhoomulalo - that is, in the arid heart, You have planted seeds of Love - this song - it was something like that. Having love for God. That was what He developed in those years. In me, at least.
KM: Beautiful. Now, I understand that not only did Bhagawan speak of these beautiful loving sublime and inspiring topics, there must have been times when He spoke to you boys in a stern voice about matters related to discipline.
HN: That's true. Yes, Bhagawan would be very particular about discipline. And He would sometimes chastise us. The more painful part would be when He would stop talking, altogether. And He would say, 'What is the use of Me talking to you? You are not following My words.' That would prick everybody. And that would probably be the times at which a lot of introspection would go on, and people would change for the better. Of course, when He pointed out specific things, naturally, people would try to correct themselves, that is also true. For example, towards the end of my school studies, Bhagawan paid a visit to our Hostel. This was in February 1992. And He delivered a very strict message. He was very unhappy with some of the senior students, and He very bluntly told them that if they wanted to be there with Bhagawan, they would have to follow what He says. And within a few days, He also left for Brindavan. He has gone away. So He's no longer speaking to you, and so on. In that way, He would reinforce what He said, by not talking to you. Then, a lot of introspection would take place, and those who truly loved Him would try to change themselves and follow what He said, rather than just mouth the sentiment that they loved Him, or whatever it is.
KM: Hari, what exactly were the areas of discipline that were weak among the boys, that Swami pointed at as a weakness among the boys? Would you care to share?
HN: Those days, Bhagawan was very strict about talking. He would be very particular about maintaining silence. He would say, "Boys are talking too much". Then, "going from room to room" - you were not expected to socialize. You were not expected to have discussions other than for your academics, of course, other than what is strictly required, any other loose talk was an anathema for Bhagawan. And there were some other issues of some of the senior students going out and having food from outside, things like that, which He was very strict about. Even now, the Hostel is very strict about those things.
KM: And rightly so, because Swami has laid those parameters, and it is His school. I guess it is incumbent upon the administrators to ensure that the tradition continues.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: So, we never realize the value of silence, the need to curtail excessive talk. I guess this is in an age where there were no cell phones, nobody was on Whatsapp, GMail, GTalk, Facebook, constantly updating and communicating externally, and even then Swami was so strict about it.
HN: Even speaking to your own classmates,
KM: Without a good reason.
HN: Without a good reason.
KM: As He said, 'Speak only if what you speak is true, is pleasing, and will improve upon the silence'.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: If all of us actually go through that criteria whenever we intend to open our mouth, we would all be very silent. Wow! So strict, huh? Was it hard as a young boy to find Swami so upset and also demonstrating the lesson by going away and being away from all of you?
HN: For some people, it was really difficult. Especially those to whom Swami had showered a lot of attention, a lot of personal attention. People to whom He would speak almost every day. For them, naturally, it was very difficult. For somebody like me, in the crowd, I was not used to personal attention, so it did not hit me as hard. I thought that I would not be so upset about such things, I thought that my approach to Bhagawan was different, but later He showed me that He can make me also go through that drama. Much later - this happened in 2010. He created a situation where it appeared as if He was upset with me, that too for something which I misunderstood - I had not understood Him correctly. Those days, whenever He would come inside the bhajan hall, I would be sitting there with the audio mixer, for Radiosai, and He would either look at me, or nod at me, or acknowledge my presence. After this sort of misunderstanding, or annoyance, or whatever, for six months or so, He would turn away His head very abruptly when He used to come near me. So, that sort of indicated that He was upset with me. And I could not do much about it. I could write letters to Him, but it apparently didn't work. So, that sort of thing is very effective in causing introspection. I learnt it the hard way.
KM: Six tough months, huh?
HN: That's true.
KM: And then how did it resolve, between the two of you?
HN: I think it was one of those students alumni meet or something like that. He looked at me. With a faint smile.
KM: Intense rigourous spiritual training, obviously. But the so-called wonderful years at Brindavan - what else do you recall, when you look back?
HN: Those days, when we used to go to Prasanthi Nilayam, we were allowed to sit in the Mandir whenever we wanted. In the afternoon times, we would be sitting opposite the verandah, and when Bhagawan would go for His lunch or meals or whatever, we would have a glimpse of Him from afar. If Bhagawan happened to see us, He would come near the verandah, the edge of the balcony, and He would sometimes say a few words. Only some 5-6 of us would be there. That is one memory. Another memory is - when Malayali boys used to go for Onam, Bhagawan would sometimes give us attention. He would say, "Brindavan boys, go inside" - interview room - and He would give us interviews. In fact, one year, He gave us two interviews during that Onam time.
KM: Because Onam is a special festival for the people of Kerala, where you come from?
HN: That's right. Those interviews were also similar to the Trayee sessions. Bhagawan would give us some advice, we could have padanamaskar, He would sometimes give us vibhuti packets, we would have the opportunity of giving Him letters and so on. Sometimes, somebody would have the opportunity to ask Him some questions - He would say, "What is the news?" and somebody would ask something. And so on.
KM: As a student, as a girl student who studied here in the late eighties, as He Himself said, with ladies, He was a lady, with men He was a man, with boys, He was a boy - I remember you all having wonderful times - the boy students - having a great time with Bhagawan during Diwali. Did you have any such opportunity to celebrate Deepavali with Swami as a student?
HN: Yes, during my XI and XII, we were at Prasanthi Nilayam, and Bhagawan would celebrate Deepavali with a lot of enthusiasm, along with all of us. Crackers would be set up in the Prasanthi Mandir grounds itself.
KM: Yes! Now when I think back, it seems so hard to believe, right in front of the verandah you all used to burst those big firecrackers.
HN: That's right. And all the ladies would be shivering. Sometimes the rockets would go towards the ladies and they would all shriek. Once or twice, it so happened that the rockets came towards Bhagawan, but He would not even flinch. It would burst right in front of Him, but He would just not bother about it. And He would give sparklers to - personally, with His own hands - He would give sparklers to the small children. He was the Best Friend.
KM: Such comfort levels all of you enjoyed. I think maybe a thousand years from now, or a hundred years from now, when people hear these stories, they will find it so hard to believe that it actually happened.
HN: Even now, Didi.
KM: Even today. It's hard to believe this transpired, that we actually celebrated Diwali with Bhagawan. When He was handing over firecrackers and flowerpots. We call them Anar in Hindi. Yes, I remember. And every time one flower pot would illuminate, Swami's form used to look so beautiful against that light. Yes. Memorable days. Now, Hari, knowing what a self-negating kind of humble, quiet, behind the scenes person you are, I understand you actually took part in a drama? That was presented in front of the Lord, and you had a very special role in it?
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: Please share that with us.
HN: This was the Chaitanya drama, which was presented in 1993 and again in 1994 January. I was the leper whom Chaitanya Mahaprabhu cures.
KM: You had a 3 second role or something?
HN: It was a little longer. The pathos of the leper had to be presented. And then how he gets cured, and the joy and all that. All that had to be presented. So, it was something like a three minute role.
KM: Plum role you bagged! Very good, Hari!
HN: We had planned for this during our school days. We had many many practice sessions. And we used to go for morning darshan and so on, asking Bhagawan for an opportunity to present this drama, when we were in school. At that time, Swami said, "Later ... later ... later ..." and it never transpired. And after I joined Brindavan, in my second year of undergraduate, suddenly the idea of this Chaitanya Mahaprabhu drama again surfaced, and it was planned for the Convocation drama. And, looking for actors who could do those roles, some of the actors who had practiced for those roles in our school days, we were still students, we were in college at that time, we were chosen. Bhagawan was very pleased with this Convocation drama, 22 November 1993. He said, for the doctors' conference in January '94, we should again present this drama. After the presentation of the drama to the doctors, the President of India was also in the audience, Bhagawan was very pleased. He came onstage and started giving out mementos. These were steel vessels. And He was handing it out to all the actors. Big role, small role, everybody. I was in the final scene of the drama. We were a large group. Maybe 20-30 or even more of us. And in that confusion, it appeared as if Bhagawan did not see me. So, I did not get the memento. I did not want to pester Him onstage. So I just walked offstage when everybody else was leaving. Later, in the video of the session, I could see that Bhagawan had called after me, saying that "Oh! You did not get!" But I did not see that, because I turned away, and I was walking off. Backstage - our seniors, the teachers - they told me, 'You go again, Bhagawan wants to give you the memento.' In the next batch, again, I went, this time Bhagawan gave me the memento. This fact that Bhagawan was looking out for me, but I did not see Him, that seems to be a sort of repeating thing in my life. Even in Kodaikanal, in 2006, Bhagawan asked me, whether I had seen Him when He had come to Calicut. At that time, I did not know that we had gone and seen Him. In 1976. I would have been a baby. Toddler. But I asked my parents. And apparently, yes, they had taken me and gone to a colleague's house, where Bhagawan was staying, and we had darshan. In 1976. So, Bhagawan mentioned it, even though I did not know about it.
KM: And how old were you at that time? '76?
HN: 2 years old? And a couple of days later, when Bhagawan gave all of us padanamaskar after the drama, He looked at me and asked, "Leprosy?" So He sort of recognized me, in my leper's role.
KM: You were there, when on 22 November, I think, 1994, when the Prime Minister of India at that time, late Narasimha Rao was here. I'm curious to know, you have the entries in the diary, what stands out as the most forceful message that Swami gave that day?
HN: Bhagawan spoke that day, in very direct terms. He said, "The Prime Minister is here. He is also a person from Andhra Pradesh. I have some things to tell you. Our country will improve if all the rivers are used for common good. There is also one thing I should tell you. This practice of killing cows should stop. In our sacred land of Bharat, this is not appropriate. The Prime Minister should take steps to stop this." And as we all know, the Prime Minister did not do much about it. Bhagawan Himself started the Water Project, and provided drinking water, the very next year, for the entire Anantapur district.
KM: Swami was constantly demonstrating and giving examples - how to go about putting your words into practice. So that the rest of us could learn from Him. Especially those in decision-making capacities. So unfortunate that the government was only applauding the effort, not participating by taking it up themselves. Now, after your undergraduate in Brindavan, you went on to do your Masters in Physics. That was in Prasanthi Nilayam, of course. Those years must have been very memorable as well?
HN: After the closeness at Brindavan, Prasanthi Nilayam was more ... You could say, you've learnt your lessons, now practice them. It was something like that. As you know, Didi, in Prasanthi Nilayam, Bhagawan has got a lot more responsibilities, so to speak. So He gets to spend less time with the students in such a close setting as in Brindavan. But yes. One of the things which stand out in my memory is that it was during my first year post-graduate, that this water-works started. That is, sitting for Bhajan one day, suddenly, tears started coming out of my eyes.
KM: Were you upset? Was there a reason?
HN: I couldn't say that. No specific reason to be sad. It was not that I was sad and crying. You could say I was happy and crying. Tears of joy of being in His presence. I was the most surprised person! I never used to cry!
KM: Or show too much emotion. You're so reserved.
HN: That's right. So, that is really the power of God. As He used to say, 'I can turn a boy into a girl and a girl into a boy.'
KM: And churn your heart so that somebody who is as self-contained as yourself actually have a big cry-fest.
HN: That's true.
KM: So, you were going through this period of just catharsis, crying your eyes out just out of love for Swami. And then you've had issues with your health here?
HN: Yes, Didi. After I started working, in the year 2000, I got jaundice. And I was out of action for two months. And again, five years later, I was again out of action for another two or three weeks, with a lung infection. When I had jaundice, I was initially admitted to the Super Speciality Hospital. I was kept in an isolation ward. Apparently, some of the students who were working there, they spoke to Swami about me, and He said, the reason I contracted jaundice was because I drank the muddy water at the Planetarium. Which was actually true - I was drinking the tap water, which would turn muddy during the monsoon time.
KM: Wow! So the water must have been contaminated, and He just got to the bottom of it.
HN: That's right. So, after I recovered, I started having food in the Hostel. And taking the water from the Hostel. Purified water.
KM: Hari, of all the brothers that I have spoken to, especially for in-house Fleeting moments interviews from Team Radiosai, in their story, there's a chapter called 'Waiting years'. And when people had to wait after completing their education, for Bhagawan to tell them what was the right occupation or job for them. You had yours, for not too long, for about a year and a half.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: 1997 to '98?
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: What was it like?
HN: For me personally? It was some of the best months with Bhagawan I had. Because there was no other preoccupation. We had to think only of Bhagawan. During the morning bhajans, we could sit right at His feet. The first row - the very first row of the bhajan hall. Those days, there were no mics. We were singing directly to Him. Singing His praises, two feet away from Him! And, every day. For months. It was wonderful. There were some other colleagues of mine who had various worries. What would happen to us, how long will we wait, time is passing, and so on. But Bhagawan had given me that mental outlook, to be completely convinced that He would take me in at the right time. Even though there were examples of one of my senior colleagues who had waited for seven years, that did not scare me, you could say. In fact, in those years, I did not even think about any minus points about the waiting time. I did not think it was a burden. I felt it was a great blessing.
KM: This is the time when the water-works was on and Swami was opening up your heart and the bliss was flowing through your eyes.
HN: That's right, Didi. He would occasionally glance at me,
KM: Who's that girl crying in the boys' section?!
HN: Something like that. And occasionally, it may have been my imagination, I thought I saw a tear or so in His eyes also. I don't know.
KM: Hari, how did you become part of Team Radiosai? Yourself, Prakash Bharatkar and of course, Prof. G. Venkataraman - you were the small team that led it all, under His guidance. Under Bhagawan's guidance, and under Prof. GV's guidance. How did you get hand-picked in that team?
HN: When the WorldSpace team came to Prasanthi Nilayam and proposed a satellite radio channel for Bhagawan, Prof. Venkataraman was chosen to do the implementation. At that time, I was reporting to him, for the Planetarium upgradation project. For which I was hired, initially. My first job was to upgrade the planetarium. That project was just winding up when this WorldSpace team arrived with this proposal. Since I was reporting to Prof. Venkataraman, for that project, and he was involved with Radiosai, it was quite natural that I would also be pulled into the Radiosai fold.
KM: I don't think it's that natural. It's not easy for Prof. Venkataraman to pick anyone to be part of his team, because I know how exacting his standards are. You must have done a good job, Hari.
HN: I hope so. In 2002, when Bhagawan came for the inauguration of the studio, here, I was asked to hold the candle for Him to light the lamp. So, He looked at me and said, "Oh! You're here?!" Because He used to see me there at the Planetarium and He used to call me "Planetarium boy". So, He was seeing me inside the Ashram, in the Studio, so He asked, "Have you come here?", "Have you shifted your workplace?", something like that. I said, "No, Swami, I'm still there at the Planetarium. Just helping them out with some things." That's how it has remained. I have been at the Planetarium, and doing Radiosai work on the side, so to speak.
Here is a link to the video of the Studio inauguration - https://www.youtube.com/embed/NLINpXBPbhw
KM: That really makes you a star in Swami's sky. When you started working at Radiosai, was it nerve-wracking, initially? You had no specific training in what you did, and what were the early years like?
HN: The first few months were extremely taxing. We had to generate four hours of content every day, and write them on CDs. So, it was quite a few months of hard slogging. And after that, we transitioned to a playout system without CDs, without having to send physical CDs. And then, we had an incident with Bhagawan. A WorldSpace radio had been installed in Bhagawan's drawing room, and some of the authorities promised Bhagawan that His 76th Birthday Discourse would be aired on a particular day, at 11:30 in the morning. And we were informed the previous day. So, we had to change the scheduled program and introduce this particular Discourse which we had just uploaded. Unfortunately, I made a mistake. There was something wrong in the way in which I did the re-scheduling, as a result of which Bhagawan waited for the Discourse to come for nearly an hour, but instead, some Sundaram bhajans were played. Then Bhagawan retired to His room, after waiting for an hour.
KM: Did you get into trouble?
HN: We were also listening to the program, and when it did not come as scheduled, it was as much a shock for us as it was for the authorities.
KM: It used to be beamed from Australia or somewhere, so once it's gone, you did not have control over it or change it, like we have now.
HN: That's right Didi. Actually we had control, but we were not so well versed in it, to know what to do. I did not know what was the problem. So I could not fix it. That evening, during the darshan session, when Bhagawan came near, I got on my knees and asked for pardon. I said, "Bhagawan, I made a mistake. I'm sorry." Then, Bhagawan said, "OK, I listened to it, I heard a nice voice on the radio, whose voice was it, I asked them. They said it was you. Oh! You have such a sweet voice..." He created vibhuti and rubbed it on my throat and all that, and He totally changed the whole tenor of the conversation. Instead of chastising me, He complimented me, and defused the whole situation so that the authorities also would not come down heavily on me and sort of saved my skin, you should say.
17 December 2001.
KM: So much compassion. He would do it so tactfully that everybody would start smiling. Everybody who was upset with you would also be smiling with Swami. No?
HN: That's right, Didi. And it's a great lesson for people who are in management positions. When somebody makes a genuine mistake, and he apologizes for it, how to accept it, and how to motivate that person to do better in future.
KM: Hari, now you've been working so assiduously, you're so extremely focused and disciplined. It's not hard to tell you're a very calm person who goes about his work with great attention to detail, you're very efficient. Given your skillset, given your level of intelligence and commitment, you would be doing exceedingly well if you worked in the outside world, in terms of professional success. Does the thought ever cross your mind that what I'm doing, is this the right thing for me, being in an ashram and dedicating my life, my talent, my intelligence, aspirations, in a place where there's not a whole lot of opportunity for further growth, in terms of promotions, or rising within the ranks of the management or something?
HN: Well, Didi, when I was studying, I mentioned that I thought my life goal should be to spend it with Bhagawan. At that time, I thought to myself, that even as a sweeper in the Ashram, I would be glad to stay with Bhagawan. So, it is not what we do - the way we do it which is important. If we do any job with all our heart, that will give us satisfaction. That will give us fulfilment in life. Earning a lot of money, or having a lot of fame, may not give you as much fulfilment as you get when you do something with your heart.
KM: You know, you're saying that, because you've experienced that level of gratification. Someone who's right on that success trajectory, who's experiencing name and fame, he may think that's the be all and end all of life, because, you know, they made it to the cover page of a certain business magazine, or they are talked about in the news, they make some big huge salary, and here you are, you're talking with such conviction about the gratification of doing a good job and doing it well, for a higher purpose, but you haven't tasted life on the other side?
HN: You can say I have tasted life on the other side vicariously, because I have lots of relatives who are in that ... Oh yes! And I can see the amount of happiness which they have, or lack of it, you could say. And Bhagawan also used to tell us, "Who is the richest man in the world? The one with the least desires, is the richest man. Who is the poorest man? The one with much desires is the poorest man." And we can see it in action. Life is like a practical laboratory, we can see all these things in action. There's another illustration which Bhagawan gives. That is, if you want the coconut atop a coconut tree, if you climb the shadow, you don't get it. If you climb the actual coconut tree, on the shadow also you get the shadow coconut, as well as the real coconut. That is, Bhagawan says that God, or aspiration for God, is climbing the coconut tree. While aspiration for worldly goods is climbing the shadow coconut tree. When you climb the shadow coconut tree, you may or may not get what you want, but you will not get God. While if you aspire for God, 'Seek ye the kingdom of God, and all else will be added unto you.'
KM: The Bible says that. And Swami reassures us of the same.
HN: Yes, Didi. And all our needs are taken care of. Not just needs in terms of food, clothing, shelter, but also emotional needs and spiritual needs, most importantly. Living in such a peaceful environment, no pollution. And I would say there is ample opportunity for professional growth, if one is patient.
KM: I guess a person like you, who is used to taking a lot of personal initiative - you seek out opportunities.
HN: That's right, Didi. In every field, there is scope for advancement, if one has sincerity and focus. Here, we do not make a big splash, but that doesn't mean that people don't make an impact outside also. For example, some of Swami's students who are working in the Hospitals, they have created a great deal of impact on the National and even International stage. They have garnered a lot of respect and positive attention for the Institution because of their excellence in their fields.
KM: Exactly. And I noticed that too. A lot of our brothers, who work for example in the Sathya Sai Healthcare system, whether it's the IT area, or whether it's management, or whether it's telemedicine, all of them are playing some very key roles with mainstream organisations, co-ordinating, they're being taken in and actually welcomed with open arms because of their style of working.
HN: That's right, Didi. Even other institutions like the school - the Higher Secondary School recently got a lot of recognition ...
KM: From the Minister of Education for India, because of the excellence in their teaching practices.
HN: Yes, Didi. Even the Institute. The University gets recognition from the Indian Government. Many of the funding agencies find that our University is the one which asks for less money, and delivers maximum results.
KM: Because we do it in such an accountable, transparent and efficient manner. So, it's nice to know that young people like yourself see growth opportunities in the system. Very heartening to see. I hope it encourages more and more young people to continue to work for the Ashram and its allied institutions.
HN: Yes, Didi.
KM: Going forward - plans for the future, Hari Nandakumar?
HN: No plans, Didi. Because, even from my childhood, I never used to plan for the future. I would welcome whatever He gives. No plans as such.
KM: So, life as it happens, one step at a time.
HN: That's right, Didi.
KM: That keeps you so contented. Don't you have anxiety? Don't you worry about the future?
HN: Not really, Didi. I have this mental picture of a child in a mother's arms. That child is contented. Happy.
KM: And safe. Now, may I ask this child in the Mother's arms, who is Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba for you? Apart from being your Mother, of course?
HN: Closest companion? Closer than anybody else in the world? And, as He says, I am You and You are Me. I have not yet reached that stage of understanding, but theoretically yes, He is a better version of me.
KM: Oh! Quite a learning curve for me to sit and listen to you, Hari. I really want to thank you for coming forward and opening up to Radiosai listeners.
HN: Thank you, Didi.
KM: Sai Ram.
HN: Sai Ram.
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